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Dianne
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Please let me know if you have found any resources to direct me to, or have any ideas to help me. I have found nothing specific to my issue on the web or in books. On this blog, one student had this problem and was instructed to lower their hand- it was too upright. My hand is not like that.
Dianne
24 Responses
Posted: December 6, 2017
Last Comment: January 6, 2018
Replies

Christopher Sinkule
Posted: January 6, 2018
I'm trying to go back to a wrist vibrato again and I'm still having this problem unfortunately. Whatever you did worked and you've clearly improved a lot, I need to read this thread to see what you did, thanks for the update!

Dianne
Posted: January 6, 2018
Thank you, Barbara!

Here is exactly what I found was happening with my vibrato:
I recreated the forearm movement without the instrument. Everything was so relaxed without the violin, at first I couldn't recreate it. So I kept experimenting with adding tension here and there. Then I got it. It happened when the wrist was locked. When this happened, the hand sort of swung over to the fingerboard to make the vibrato, and the little forearm movement happened. This was quite different from rocking over either side of the top of the forearm. I had heard of locked wrists, but didn't have the exact visual symptom of other students, so I didn't think it applied to me. That was what made this so hard to figure out. The solution was complete relaxation of the entire forearm and wrist. I had no idea what this recording was going to sound like. The feeling of relaxation was great!

Barbara Habel
Posted: January 6, 2018
What a change. Your forearm hardly moves at all. Only on the 1st finger is the wrist a bit pronated. But I have seen others on YouTube play with such a vibrato and it seems to be fine.

I think we all have an individual way of doing vibrato. So I would not worry about that bit pronated. All in all I think you have "got" it.

And you are good at doing some continuous vibrato. So well done.

However, I do not understand what you are doing differently to have achieved the change.

Dianne
Posted: January 5, 2018
This discussion includes members-only video content

Vibrato With Minimum or No Forearm Movement
Well, I worked on developing a hybrid arm vibrato again, but this time with the impulse coming from the forearm, which stabilized the elbow. (Before I was doing too much of a free action that was uncontrolled, and so the elbow did not like it.) It looked beautiful, but slow! That will be a nice tool to have someday, but will take lots of time to speed up with the metronome. Best to focus on just one vibrato right now I think, and I seem to gravitate toward the wrist vibrato.

So I returned at present to wrist or hand vibrato, and after lots of warming up and loads and loads of relaxation, I was able to do the vibrato motion with little or no forearm movement. Please tell me what you think! Do I have it?

Maria
Posted: January 3, 2018
This discussion includes members-only video content


Hello Dianne, 

I will post my vid in a while, showing you my arm-today it's more stiffer especially in front of the camera...Even the SR popped off during the recording [excuse my exclamation at the end], no matter what- vibrating on 1st and second finger was seriously hard. The piece was my version of the Ave M, but since I don't know the rest I just added other notes.

Maria
Posted: January 3, 2018


I'm back, it's a def arm vibrato...

Even though my violin is its case and covered with my extra winter coat- all the pegs were still very loose, winter here truly deep...This morning it was negative 14 degrees centigrade

Dianne
Posted: January 3, 2018
Hi Barbara, no, not a camera angle problem, you are right about the pronation in my left wrist. In this thread, Beth talks about a student who had trouble with pronation during vibrato. I do think I need to look at raising my left thumb. This is the thread I referred to when I 1st opened this post, but because I didn't think I had a space between the 1st finger and neck, I didn't think it applied to me. But the pronation during vibrato does, and the thumb position would directly affect it. I am going to give it a try.

Maria
Posted: January 3, 2018

Yes, indeed that was beautiful vibrato Dianne a wrist vibrato I am sure...

I will try record and see if mine is arm vibrato...I was a bit curious, BRB.

Barbara Habel
Posted: January 3, 2018
Dear Dianne

That was lovely vibrato on "Moon over ruined Castle". That was continuous vibrato. You are doing well there. I especially like the speed up from 2:15 to give it attention. And you are holding out the note til the end. That is nice. I must try that for myself.

I have an old vibrato video and my arm there is worse than what you show now. But your video also shows a pronation of your wrist. Whereas my arm sits in the middle of the movement.

But on the "Forarm Movement" video at 1:25 it is all perferct. So either it is a matter of camera angle or your vibrato varies.

Dianne
Posted: January 2, 2018
This discussion includes members-only video content

Moon Over Ruined Castle With Vibrato
Hi Barbara, I'm not sure because your vibrato sounds lovely. I think only our teachers can tell us for sure if a little forearm movement is acceptable. You were the one who pointed it out for me, and I am glad, because it was very pronounced at that time, but I wonder if it is now subtle enough that it doesn't matter. It's something to guard against for me at the very least, and I know I need to keep working on it. Here is my latest vibrato. I have been working on relaxation, but still see a pretty upright hand position- it's just the way I play I guess. This piece allows for a very slow vibrato, so it's a good one to use for this I think.

Barbara Habel
Posted: January 2, 2018
Dear Dianne,

please have a look at my latest version of: Are you lonesome tonight.

http://violinlab.com/Community/details.php?id=11066

Watch my vibrato at my wrist and see whether I suffer from the same thing as you.

I found our vibratos to be very similar.  -   With the only distinction that I am not worried about my vibrato.  -  Should I worry about my vibrato?



Dianne
Posted: January 2, 2018
This discussion includes members-only video content

Vibrato - Hand Support in Lower Positions
Ok, I found this smaller citrus fruit vibrato exercise. :) I am convinced that I have two issues: going over the top of the note on some note values, and not having trained the hand to go consistently from neutral to back in the wrist. Although I do not have the cancelling out bending wrist, and have the vibrato 'sound', I believe this is the 2nd issue for me- needing support in 1st and 2nd positions.

My question is, will this work as a remedial exercise, and if so, how long would it take? Also, this is only an isolated exercise because it does not allow shifts. Yes, as long as it takes, but how many months did it take anyone who has worked with this remedially, and did it really work in a remedial application? I can see where this would work for someone working vibrato up from scratch, but I don't see results in remedial training at all so far after some weeks of this.

Dianne
Posted: December 30, 2017
The video Kurosh referenced in Amelia's thread was very informative for me with my vibrato. The forearm was moving as mine did. When I slowed the video down, at around 20 seconds in, the vibrato was going from the pitch (ex. 4th finger D on G-string) and over the pitch- same thing I was doing. I can't thank you enough for that video. When going from the pitch to over the pitch, an extra muscle gets involved, because of the resulting upright angle of the finger.

For the last three weeks I have been trying to reprogram my muscle memory for vibrato to be under the pitch and up to the pitch, starting with a backward movement, but also to not revert to entirely over the pitch at any time during the piece. Hard! For me, this involves specific hand frame angles of the tiniest degree, and complete relaxation of the the entire arm and back. This of course slows the vibrato down, as in starting completely over!

I tried hybrid arm vibrato but it bothered my elbow. So it has to be wrist in those lower positions, so carry on!

Dianne
Posted: December 10, 2017
I meant to say thank you for all of your suggestions and help, everyone.

Thank you, Beth. It is good to know that I am on the right track and should not give up. Thank you so much.

This weekend, I worked on having more of a backwards angle to my left hand, so that I am starting with more of the pad of the fingers, training in relaxation into the whole arm. It feels a lot more backwards than it looks. Immediately, there is no movement in the forearm. Two Springs ago, I posted a video because the 2nd finger had a problem of being too upright for vibrato. That is essentially the problem I am having now. This new hand position will help me to retrain the muscles to relax and disengage the forearm. I have found that everything I have learned about vibrato is all true, it's just a matter of putting all the bits together in a way that works for me.

Vayia UK
Posted: December 8, 2017
Maybe you should find an assistant and try this?

Beth Blackerby
Posted: December 8, 2017
I think you're right Dianne, The angle looks a little steep. It has actually improved from the previous video. I don't see the counter actions between the arm and wrist. You'r on the right track! Don't be discouraged!

Dianne
Posted: December 8, 2017
I can't help but think that my issue is that the wrist angle is too steep, or something in that area. If I could just put my finger on what the problem is, I won't have to go to arm vibrato, because I have worked remedially against the bout of the violin, yes, and it didn't transfer down to 1st position. I would like to have something I could try in 1st position to work on this. I haven't been able to find anything but an orange over @ VMC. Orange too big, and I don't think anything smaller would help my issue after I took it away. Please keep the ideas coming!

Janice Branley
Posted: December 7, 2017
Thanks for that link Beth.  I watched that video with great interest, it explains very clearly the different kinds of vibrato and I think I was doing what you describe as different motions cancelling each other out too.  I'll be practicing this again tomorrow using a mirror so I can check out what I'm doing.  

Beth Blackerby
Posted: December 7, 2017
Dianne,

Have you watched this video?


I address what you're doing. Although you aren't squeezing the neck, I describe the motion your doing and how it cancels out the vibrato movement. Let me know if it helps or not.



Vayia UK
Posted: December 7, 2017
A very quick thought from me with an idea to try: start on the pitch with a straight wrist, fall back to the low pitch by dropping the hand. Perhaps you have the wrist straight when you fall to the low pitch and then your wrist bends when you go up to the pitch? I hope that's clear... 


Janice Branley
Posted: December 7, 2017
Hi Dianne,

I am working on this exact issue too at the moment. As Christopher has said, I was determined to use only the hand vibrato and after months of practice I was even driven the other day to stop my wrist  wobbling by cutting up the inside of a paper roll and wrapping it around the wrist with tape.  Sounds odd, but it actually gave me the clue to the root of the issue which was, in order for my wrist to not wobble, my forearm just had to join in a bit.

 Then yesterday I found this video on the site here, it comes in two parts and for me has made an enormous difference.  What Mr Dick shows is the movement he is seeking, and he says how you achieve that is individual.  He's not saying anything goes, and clearly demonstrates every undesirable movement like rocking sideways etc, but in terms of wrist, hand arm he is open minded,  This is an amazing class --- 
(Workshop 2012) Vibrato Class by Bill Dick: part 1 & part 2

Dianne
Posted: December 6, 2017
Hi Bjørn, I tried the idea of the lowered thumb and it helped on some notes on some strings, but not on others. The thumb became a pivot, so the forearm was able to stabilize. I was very hopeful of that. In fact, it solved another problem that occurs, which is rocking too far above the note. (I rock back on the first note, but the forearm seems to pull my hand over the top of the note from then on.) But on the other notes/strings, it was back to an unstable wrist action, with moving forearm. But thank you for the idea.

Christopher, you might be right. I might be having a tendency to a hybrid vibrato.

An update:
Tonight I spent some time with Simon Fischer's warming up exercises for vibrato, and my forearm was not moving. I do these every day actually, and it wasn't until tonight that I realized that it was in pieces that the whole thing falls apart, and that could be because I exert too much effort. SF writes in WU that not more effort is required for a faster vibrato, just a narrower motion. So I am going to stick with what I am doing for now, and see if I can slow things down a bit in order to get the warming up exercises to translate into a piece or a scale.



Bjørn Larsen
Posted: December 6, 2017
Hi Dianne
I think that one of the difficulties about learning vibrato is that everyone's hand is different from everybody else's. So ou have to do a lot of experimenting with small changes in the way you are used to play. In your video it is difficult to see the placement of your left thumb, but I think you should try to move it a little more down under the fingerboard. That will allow you to get your base knuckles up, so your fingers will be more free to make the vibrato movement. I can see that when you play a descending scale, you raise your hand in order to reach with your fourth finger, and then drop back to the lower position when you use the other fingers. I have no idea if this is part of your troubles vith the forearm movement, but just an idea that came to me when I watched yout video. - Just keep experimenting.

Christopher Sinkule
Posted: December 6, 2017
If you’re like me then the problem is being adamant about using only wrist vibrato. For the longest I tried purely wrist vibrato and I always had that little wag in the wrist/arm. When I allowed myself to use arm vibrato I naturally settled into a combination of the two. I use purely arm on first finger, mostly wrist on second and third, and pinky depends on where I am on the fingerboard. If you haven’t, try letting yourself do arm vibrato, I know I was greatly surprised.