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Barb Wimmer
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Things I learned from my lesson - that there are about 20, different quarter and eighth note rhythm patterns. I learned that if I think in notes and not numbers and then think counting 1-2-3-4 it works out better. I learned that I have a long ways to go to getting rhythm right. Maybe in twinkle little star I sometimes get it and then my intonation goes down. Did this at "50", slow just playing random stuff in my head. Thinking I will take one bar at a time. Taking it slower is better than trying to take it faster. And simple as Diane said is better than trying to do the hard stuff.

Thoughts welcome. I am still stubborn and want to play harder songs with rhythm but am thinking I need to get the counting probably down with Twinkle Little star maybe and just do quarter notes and then a few eighth notes and end with a half note then work up to harder. 

My teacher stated knowing notes as letters and really counting each note is essential as in if I have quarter note -eighth note -quarter note -quarter note 4/4 time  I believe it would be 1 2and 3 4. 
Barb Wimmer
23 Responses
Posted: August 2, 2017
Last Comment: August 12, 2017
Replies

Beth Blackerby
Posted: August 12, 2017
Lots of heart emojis for the fantastic supportive ideas, you guys. What marvelous advice.

  Subdividing and vocalizing are the two best ways to improve rhythmic skills. So glad you're keeping at this!

Dianne
Posted: August 11, 2017
Seitz Concerto No.2 Op.13 3rd Movement
Hi Mohammed, I looked @ the score this morning and I would definitely play it in 2, setting the metronome to the dotted quarter note- 2 beats per measure. Set the metronome to 72 for instance, and sing/count 123 456 to get the feel for the beat. Before trying to play these measures 22-29, sing the note values, extending your singing to include the 2nd beat on the slur. For instance, you need to extend your voice to cover 4 beats in the beginning of m.22, but put a pulse in your voice to delineate the start of the 2nd beat. Once you can sing this to the metronome, you should be able to play it, hearing the sung beat in your mind. I hope this helps. I will be playing this piece in just another couple of months <gulp> so very interested in your question!

PS Maybe set the metronome a little bit slower @ 1st- this pieces really gets moving later!

Mohammed Hajjar
Posted: August 11, 2017
To add some complexity, how do you count and use the metronome for Bar 22 to 29, where you a combination of 16th, 8th, quarter, etc.

This is where I’m getting confused. 

Barbara Habel
Posted: August 7, 2017
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Here is Laurie Niles with what I find a helpful suggestion to master those tricky rhythms.

All you need to know for it Barb is how many subdivision a longer note has.

2 x 16th = 8th
2 x 8th = quarter
2 x quarter = half
2 x half = whole

3 x 16th = dotted 8th
3 x 8th = dotted quarter
3 x quarter = dotted half

Jaime - Orlando , Fl
Posted: August 5, 2017
I think the main point Barb is to feel the tempo and see how the full note, the half note ,the quarter note falls into it. You can sing it, you can clap it, you can bow it.... or a mix!... whichever means help you understand the spacing between beats... that would be the root of the notion of rhythm. May I also suggest when bowing.... one string... no fingers... to start with... just open string... until that sense of rhythm sets itself. Afterwards introduce a scale....then afterwards introduce a song.... one you are very familiar with.... but again... pacing yourself with the rhythm. 

The idea of Dianne also to double time your target rhythm... for example.. playing at 60 BPM?, then set the metronome to 120 bpm... it will make it easier to follow, being aware that when you are hitting each audible beat at 120 BPM, you are actually playing the half value note on a 60 BPM beat.... if it makes sense! :0)

Always admire your progress!!
Keep it up! :0) , and thank you Mary! :0)

Mary Freeman
Posted: August 5, 2017
I really like your August 3rd Post Jaime


Barb Wimmer
Posted: August 5, 2017
Thanks Jaime Dianne Maria-I will bookmark this and try not to just copy you and follow a system of feeling the beat and metronome and with lots practice hopeful will make progress 






Maria
Posted: August 4, 2017
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Good Pm Barb,

Finally i got a day off and was able to get some sleep [work 11-7 shift], so here's my contribution - I hope it will help you in someways...

I set the metronome at 128 bpm and just bowed on open strings.

Keep going, never give up and happy practicing!

Jaime - Orlando , Fl
Posted: August 4, 2017
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I definitely like Dianne's idea... to engrain the concept of the beats within the tempo. Singing them... or voicing them out loud. Perhaps try with WHOLE, HALF AND QUARTER notes or beats , first.

Perphaps first listening to the tempo... following it verbally, so each tempo beat will represent the whole note. Then verbally try to go double tempo, or two notes per beat (Half notes). Then double that to four notes per beat  (quarter notes)

Or trying it with claps... it will bring a more solid sense of notes.... or beats , within a tempo.... sing it or clap it, then try with the bow!

Elke Meier
Posted: August 4, 2017
I like your video, Dianne! I thought the last few days about doing something like this just to demonstrate. This is so much easier than explaining! But I hope Barb does not try to copy your example with those syncopated measures right away :).

Barb, I think your last video went exactly in the right direction, and toward the end of the video there were places where you stayed in rhythm for a little bit. But it is as Dianne said in her answer: You move ahead in your practice too quickly. 

Here is what I observed in your last video: You start at :14 with the "one". But already at :17, at the "three", you are not in sync anymore. But you don't stop yourself. Rather, after a few measures you "happen" to get back in time with the metronome for a bit. That to me is an indication that you have not internalized that beat of the metronome. Otherwise your inner alarm would go off right away and would stop you dead in your tracks to get you back right away with the beat. Your problem is not that you don't understand that two eighth notes make up a quarter note, etc. Your problem is that you have not learned to listen to the metronome and keep with the beat. This problem will not go away by playing along and hoping that at some point a few measures later you will be with the metronome again. I feel that once you overcome this problem your rhythm practice will really take off. But not before...  

Playing along with the metronome will only help you once you learn to listen to it and instantly notice when you are out of sync with the metronome. But you will not learn that by trying to play more or less complicated rhythms where with each measure you have to think and concentrate: Now, how does this measure work?

This is very similar to when you learn a difficult section in a piece and you separate left and right hand. You practice the right hand first until it knows exactly when to do the string change without you even thinking about it. It goes automatically. Then you work on the left hand. 

Similar for the rhythm practice. There are two ingredients (for now): The right hand and the rhythm. 

Take a very simple rhythm - just a measure or two, not more - and play it on open strings until your right hand knows what it needs to do without thinking about it.

Then you turn to the rhythm part. Again: the more big muscles you involve for this the easier you make it for yourself. Stomping, clapping, swaying, whatever. Walk through the room (without the violin) "Ta-Ta-ing" the beat like Dianne did and air-bow it. Since it is only one or two measures you can concentrate in each one: Is my first "Ta" really WITH the beat or is it a bit before or after? Dianne is right: don't move ahead unless you can do like half a minute or even longer of this same measure without loosing your place with the metronome. THEN you know: Now, I am still with the metronome, not "by accident" but because I controlled what I did.

And when you can do this (and not before) I would take up the violin and do the same pattern on open strings - again watching all the time: Am I still with the beat? Stopping yourself right away if you are off and starting again - until you can do it for half a minute and still not loose your place. And only then is it time to start playing a melody...

I think you purchased the Note Reading Package, didn't you? Go to video #32 of it. I just watched it and saw that Beth explains exactly those things and much more in this video. Especially, she has more on the "Ta-Ta-ing" and uses a method that would make this even more useful. And there is an exercise sheet with it that would be PERFECT for exactly the thing you need to work on right now. Again: I feel that once you learn to listen to the beat and go with it, your rhythm practice will really take of!  

Mary Freeman
Posted: August 4, 2017
That is Fabo advice
Dianne

Barbara Habel
Posted: August 4, 2017
@ Dianne.

This is a good excercise. Fist the singing then the playing on just - one - note. I would have made the mistake of playing the notes after the singing. But it is a good option just to do it on one note.

Thank you for your help.

Dianne
Posted: August 4, 2017
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Not Perfect But Hope It Helps


Diane in SOCAL
Posted: August 4, 2017
Hi Barb…what Dianne is saying, is  to internalize the beat of the 4/4 time signature. Nod your head, tap your foot and importantly…count out load…1, 2, 3, 4.  All this helps to internalize…feel that pulse at what ever tempo you have set.  Start slow at say 62 with the metro. You need to anticipate when that beat is coming around…like Dianne say…if you wait for the beat then you lag behind. This takes you out of the 4/4 time frame.  When you can play a stead, even pulse in 4/4 time on the metro say at 62 then increase the tempo a few notch up.  Have fun.  The motto:  Keep it simple and have fun. : >)
Stay Tuned. Diane 

Dianne
Posted: August 3, 2017
Hi Barb, I think using the metronome is a hard skill, and needs a lot of practice. I think you get into a syncopated rhythm, off the beat, within just a few notes. Try this: listen to the beat of the metronome without playing anything, like you were doing when you were nodding your head. Then still don't play anything, but say the beat- ta, ta, ta, ta. Keep saying that until you can say it precisely with the metronome for a 1/2 minute or so. This step may take you a while and would be interesting to troubleshoot what area of rhythm needs work. If you can do this easily, go to the next step. If not, stay with the ta ta ta ta for as long as it takes. After success with ta ta ta ta, add the bow arm. Now when you add the bow arm, realize you are adding a complexity of a muscle movement. So get that bow moving! With small bows at first. Don't let the bow arm lag. Get the arm moving to that ta ta you are saying with the metronome. Eventually, stop listening 100% to the metronome, because the beat is in your head. Only 1/2 listen to it in the background. Don't try to chase it. At that point you may get into and out of sync with the metronome, but concentrate on the 1st beat of each measure to get back into sync. YOU have the beat. This is what I would do, and I have done, to get the beat of a piece in my head. Good luck.


Barb Wimmer
Posted: August 3, 2017
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Thanks Jaime-you are right on the beat and use some long bows,  Mohammed-good point, Elke-thanks-stomping good idea, Diane-not giving up but challenging
Now at 63

I think my bow strokes don't need to be so choppy and I am I think on the beat  sometimes? and actually wondering if should hold the note longer

I think in the middle I might get off the beat or as I get faster

As for counting   one quarter note -one quarter note -one eighth note -one quarter note-one eighth note  would be in 4/4 time counted like this? (1,2 3 and 4 and) or    (1, 2, 3, 4 and)   or 

1-2-and-3 and 4?

Jaime - Orlando , Fl
Posted: August 3, 2017
Thanks Dianne and Maria!, I think it is a nice exercise for time /rhythm training.... and if we concentrate enough..... bow distribution as well! :0)

Dianne
Posted: August 3, 2017
Superb, Jaime!

Maria
Posted: August 3, 2017


I was thinking of Jaime and his mastery of the  metronome...

And here he was giving you great example, great vid Jaime, I was thinking of making one for Barb but I have no energy- still sleepy.

Glad to see and -----[too sleepy to think]

Jaime - Orlando , Fl
Posted: August 3, 2017
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Hi Barb!
Youre coming along great! but I must agree, rhythm at times present some challenges! Especially if it is a song you know by heart.... keeping with the tempo many times results in my experience that I tend to "speed up", away from where I am supposed to be..

Here is one little trick at tempo 50bpm. Imagine that each beat represents a full note. Start there, then double tempo to two strokes per beat... would be like a half note on a 50 bpm. Then half of that...representing the quarter note off each beat , then hit the eight....half of the quarter notes....

I show you with the C scale.... hope it helps to bring better understanding of beats within a certain speed, depending on the value of the note (full, vs. half , vs. quarter...etc.)

Mohammed Hajjar
Posted: August 3, 2017
I agree with Elke.  Setting the metronome at 50 is too slow for a real practice, since your mind wander off and you end up doing losing the whole purpose.  Learning comes through challenge and that's why the metronome needs to be set a comfortable yet challenging level.  62 and up.


Perhaps Beth, if you are reading this message, you could help by shooting an informative video on how to do the counting through a real passage.  There are many videos in the library, when you try to apply the bits and pieces to a real passage I get lost.  Specially when there is a combination of quarter/8th/16th notes and some rests.

Diane in SOCAL
Posted: August 3, 2017
Keep at it Barb…with your determination..you'll get it. Just don't get discouraged.
Hi Barb.  The last sentence under you video…could you clarify that counting.You mention quarter notes and an eighth note.  So, in 4/4 time you need a total of 4 quarter notes per measure.  Remember that two eighth notes…called a pair of eighth notes... if they are joined by a single bar at the top of the note stem,  would be equivalent to one quarter note.  So in other words when we subdivide a quarter note to it's next smaller parts... eighth notes,  we need two eighth notes to made a quarter note. Does that make sense?  I totally agree with Elke…you need some exercises you can look at and read of a sheet for rhythm training.  Does Beth have any PDF's of rhythms attached to the note reading class?  Look up on the net  8notes.com. Go to the beginner section under violin and print out some very easy folk pieces or tunes.  Then try these out for a rhythm challenge.  Yes, starting with the very simple and getting the PULSE of the 4/4 time, in other words the 1 2 3 4…the pulse keeps counting through but then when you get to subdivisions of notes then you need to put in the eighth note counts as 1&, 2&, 3& and 4&…these are twice as fast using a small amount of bow length as a quarter no. Right?
Have fun and stay tuned.  Diane in SoCal    
PS when setting a metronome for the pulse count:  make it easy enough that your able to do it but not so slow or too fast that you make mistakes.  So go at a pace that is best for you and then when you can move around the room…stomping (LOL Elke) to the pulse) then and only then move the metro up two notches or so and repeat.  
Your Motto:  make it fun and make it simple.  : >) another motto:  I can do this!  : >)
Diane in SoCal

Elke Meier
Posted: August 2, 2017
Yeah! Good decisions! They are decisions that will eventually get you where you want to go :).

Only exception: I don't think playing "random rhythm" will help you with anything. The only thing it could help you with is learning to listen to the metronome. But in your sample this just does not work. After four notes you are out of sync again with the metronome. Part of the reason for that is in my opinion that setting it to 50 is too slow to effectively "feel" the pulse. In my own case I have found that I find it easiest to follow a rhythm if I set the timing to 64 - somehow that seems to mirror some strange internal rhythm I have. 

I think you will need to involve your whole body. You have to "help" your small muscles in the finger by involving the big muscles in legs and arms. Start stomping around the room in time to the metronome. Then keep stomping and start clapping playing the rhythm. Just ONE pattern, maybe one measure, and repeat that while you are walking around until it is so ingrained in your whole body that you cannot but do it right and keeping in time with the metronome. This means starting each measure ON THE BEAT, not between beats. Only then do you take up the violin and play on open strings. And only then would you add some fingers. Starting with Twinkle is not a bad idea! Because that is exactly the idea of the first Twinkle variations.

You work so hard on this. I trust when you keep to the methods that fit you you will get to mastering it. But this seems to be an area that does not come naturally to you. So you need to do everything you can to help yourself and maybe work on it in smaller steps than someone with a knack for rhythm would have to do. But I hope you will stick with it and give yourself the chance to get really good at this. :)